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 CLP getting cold feet?
 
 2/13/2007 10:16:38 PM
Neveragain
123 posts
3rd


CLP getting cold feet?

This article is for the most part good news. It is the comment at the end of the article that worries me. What on earth would stop a democratically elected government from over turning/changing road laws? And isn't it amusing that the ALP are still using the same old lies to justify their newly introduced revenue stream. People power WILL win in the end.

 

 2/13/2007 10:17:34 PM
Neveragain
123 posts
3rd


Re: CLP getting cold feet?

Woops, the link is here:

http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,21216855%255E13569,00.html

 2/14/2007 1:40:10 AM
Administrator
131 posts
3rd


Re: CLP getting cold feet?

Thank you for the link much appreciated.  The CLP will honour their promise as we have a firm undertaking.

The rally was a great success in which on the steps of parliament the commitment was cemented.

 5/7/2007 9:53:35 PM
BMW E46
38 posts
5th


Re: CLP getting cold feet?
I wrote an e-mail to the CLP office the other day, asking what their plans will be for seriously reinstalling //open limits on our best highways & they were very quick in reply to my message, also they sent me a bunch of cool bumper stickers which i have been handing out to friends & family :)

Take a look at how the CLP will progress in making our open highways safer & our young drivers smarter;
http://www.clp.org.au/policies.asp

(/ /) - Divorces Traffic (130) - Marries It.
 5/14/2007 3:35:47 PM
The Gecko
229 posts
3rd


Re: CLP getting cold feet?

To BMW E46

Some great initiatives there but I would go further.

I would like to see the age of obtaining a learners permit increased to 18 - I think 16 is way too young.

I would increase the drinking age to 21.

And I would like to see an end to co-educational schools.

Feedback welcome. Would love to write reasons why right now but gotta go.

Gecks.

 5/14/2007 6:32:56 PM
Doug
18 posts


Re: CLP getting cold feet?
Feedback: Learning age should be 16 or even 15. The younger a person is, before they become a teenager who knows everything and can do anything, and realise that anyone over 21 knows nothing, then the more pliable and likely to listen they are. They will listen when you tell them what to do and why it is the best way. Habit is a good way of doing things. If learners have to drive carefully for three years under supervision, they will be more likely to drive carefully without supervision. They will have made their mistakes before, and hopefully had enough experience that they don't need to impress or do silly things because they will have progressed past there. If they have had enough and proper supervision, then they will know what to do in different and varied situations, such as: city, urban, suburban and country driving; different sealed surfaces and different unsealed surfaces; night, day, rain, fog, dawn, dusk lighting conditions; moving from sealed to unsealed edges; changing direction on different surfaces; operating all internal controls on the vehicle; perhaps even experience of a range of vehicles (small, large, 4WD, light truck, automatic, manual, column and floor shifts) and different lengths of driving (ten minutes, down the street to a shopping centre, or hours (with suitable breaks) on a trip); parking in all zones; laden and unladen cars; even (gasp!) towing. Perhaps (as a sop to governments wanting extra revenue or to keeping driving skills up-to-date) a supervising driver should have a current "certificate of proficiency" to attest that they are current with road rules and can display the skills which a learner driver needs to learn and not have the ones which a learner should not learn, e.g. riding clutches, overuse of brake, incorrect cornering techniques, having body parts protruding from vehicles, having sound systems overly loud, not using inbuilt safety devices. On the matter of the drinking age, I agree - not for any other reason than to separate the driving from the drinking age. In a similar way, I would ensure a longer 0 alcohol limit for mature age drivers getting their first licence. When I learned to drive (and I'd rather not quote how old I was when I started), I learned how to steer the car and put is where I wanted it to go; then how to change gear; then to stop at a specified spot, then traffic lights; then handle traffic of increasing density. Then I went onto other skills. The first stage was to be familiar with the car and what happened when I used the accelerator (or throttle) and the brakes, and how moving the steering wheel affecting the direction and stability of the car. Only once I knew how it would respond could I learn how to do another thing, i.e. I had to master one skill before I could go onto the next. Schools - I'll write an essay of about 200 000 words on that one, having just finished a 38 year career in them. But one comment - watch how a PM bullies MPs, both in his own party and others in the Parliament and then decries bullying in schools! And if school principals have more power, remember "Power coorrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"
 5/14/2007 7:43:21 PM
Administrator
131 posts
3rd


Re: CLP getting cold feet?

Thank you Doug for your good comments.

My father taught me how to drive at 14 years old and I can say it saved my life many years later.  I agree with you Doug let them learn early while they will still listen and empower them with responsibility. 

In regards to "Power coorrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!" is so true just look at history.

 

 5/15/2007 4:51:52 PM
The Gecko
229 posts
3rd


Re: CLP getting cold feet?

To Doug and others

 

I must say I disagree about people as young as 14 learning to drive. Sure we all know that some kids on farms learn to drive at very young ages, but we are talking about kids on public roads here.

 

16 year olds can get learners permits and I think this is wrong and now I have time I will list my reasons.

 

Now, firstly let me say that I am no expert on teenagers, I am neither a parent or a teacher. But I believe that 16 year olds take up driving mainly to impress other teenagers (ie impress their mates and attract members of the opposite sex).

 

Correct me if I am wrong, and this mainly applies to kids in co-ed schools, their mindset is (1) I must look good (2) I must impress my mates (3) I must be seen to be cool (4) I must not appear to be poor, even if I am poor (5) if I achieve points 1-4 I will attract members of the opposite sex.

 

And what is one way in which you can achieve all of the above – by owning a car and driving to school. Then once you have the car you can (a) install a big sound system (b) do burnouts in front of your peers (3) do burnouts with your peers in the car (d) go cruising with 5 – mates, or better still, with 1 – 2 mates and 2 – 3 girls (e) make fun of poor kids that can’t afford a car.

 

If this isn’t enough to convince you the Taskforce report even states that 16-20 year olds make up 6% of road users but are involved in 18% or crashes.

 

A lot of the reasons listed above are reasons why I think co-ed schools should be scrapped. In fact, there is plenty of research out there that proves that students of single sex schools perform better than students of co-ed schools.

 

Plenty of kids in history have gotten to school without a car and I think that not having a car between the ages of 16 – 18 will make kids do better at school. They have enough on their plate with hormones, exam pressure, peer pressure, working a part time job, etc without worrying about cars.

 

Here’s an idea. Authorities should paint a picture that by finishing high school your reward is freedom in the form of a licence and a car. 16 and 17 year olds are too immature, let them finish school, get all the crap out of their life, so they can get to uni and relax a bit.

 

Which leads me back to education. A lot of people believe kids are as smart today as they have ever been but I strongly disagree. Yes I agree there are some very tech savvy kids out there but if academic performance is the measuring stick then I would have to say that this generation of teens are by far the dumbest in history.

 

English, maths and science are not compulsory subjects in the HSC and both universities and employers constantly complain about the lack of education in this country. Kids are leaving school at 18 who cannot read, write, spell or do simple sums in their heads. Universities have to run bridging courses to get some students up to speed.

 

So, should we should let these dimwits behind the wheel of a car at 16? I don’t think so.

 

And why has this come about? Kids are taught to read by word recognition instead of the way we learnt, where we learnt the alphabet, then two letter words, three, etc, and we learnt to sound words out. Heck, even words we weren’t taught we could figure out.

 

On top of this they receive no corporal punishment. If they really muck up they might be “unlucky” enough to be sent home for a week. That’s no punishment, that’s a freaking holiday! If they had this in my day I would have skipped years 8 & 9 and lobbed up for year 10.

 

Teachers cannot manhandle students for fear of being charged with assault or sexual harassment.

 

And the bit I really love, the grading system, or should I say the no-grading system.  These days kids can go right through high school not knowing how dumb they are or not knowing they have the reading ability of a 5 year old because we cannot hurt their self esteem. The parents are also at a loss to know whether they should be saving their pennies to put the kid through uni, saving to put them in drug & alcohol rehab or just using the cash to go to Tahiti.

 

Well, thank you do-gooders. They cannot have harsh words said about them, they do not get A’s, B’s, etc, they are not ranked using percentile bands, and they are not ranked within their form or even against others in their class.

 

Do you still think that 16 and 17 year olds should be let loose on the roads?

 

But because some are a bit savvy people think they are smart. These days they memorise all their work, without understanding it, and think they are smart. One day one of these “geniuses” may be standing over you with a scalpel trying to recall by photographic memory how to do a quadruple bypass.

 

These kids are not capable of independent thought. They have spellcheck, calculators, the internet to do all their research (can you imagine if they had to do research in a library – they wouldn’t know where to start) and God knows what else, but take it all away and you’re left with nothing.

 

Australia is breeding a bunch of spoilt dummies with no respect for authority. They wrap them up in cotton wool and wonder what the problem is.

 

And talking of wrapping in cotton wool. Kids cannot cross roads properly these days and I blame the stupid 40kmh zones around schools. Outside of school they cross roads without looking either way or if they do look in your direction when you are bearing down on them in your car at outrageous speeds like 60-80 kmh they stare you down and expect you to stop or slow down, which you have to or else you would hit them.

 

I finished uni in 1992 as a mature age student and even back then the kids were severely lacking in maths and spelling abilities, but at least they got the cane. So by my way of thinking, education standards have been a shambles for at least 15 years.

 

Feedback welcome. Kids, take your best shot, to respond you need to be able to read, write and spell. It's highly likely you do not possess all these skills so I won't hold my breath.

 

Gecks

 5/15/2007 11:26:46 PM
Doug
18 posts


Re: CLP getting cold feet?
I offer the following as debate material to promote thoughtful discussion, not to generate ill-will or devision, as we all have one aim in mind here - we just see differnt ways of getting to it.

The parts in quotes are from above and the rest are my thoughts.

"I must say I disagree about people as young as 14 learning to drive. Sure we all know that some kids on farms learn to drive at very young ages, but we are talking about kids on public roads here. 16 year olds can get learners permits and I think this is wrong and now I have time I will list my reasons."

Just to clarify, a learner’s permit allows supervised use of a motor vehicle under certain operational conditions, including limited power and limited speed. It does not permit unsupervised driving. Although the law seems to have been changed in some states, the original intent was that if a learner driver commits an offence, both the learner and the supervising driver are charged and both can be found guilty.

"Now, firstly let me say that I am no expert on teenagers, I am neither a parent or a teacher. But I believe that 16 year olds take up driving mainly to impress other teenagers (ie impress their mates and attract members of the opposite sex)."

Having taught teenagers for nearly 38 years and supervised teenagers for years before that and at the same time, there are a number of motives for taking up driving when young.
Necessity – they need to learn how to drive and get a licence so they can survive in their environment. Isolation, occupation or duty may be some of the reasons they need to drive.
Conformity – everyone else does it as soon as they can so I will do so too (peer pressure can fall in here too).
Display – to show they can drive, to show off skills in driving, to show off the vehicle they can get hold of to drive or to impress peers (male) or potential mates (females).
Usually it is fairly evident which is the primary motive, and if it the third motive (above) then they need to have reinforcement to remove this motive.

"Correct me if I am wrong, and this mainly applies to kids in co-ed schools, their mindset is (1) I must look good (2) I must impress my mates (3) I must be seen to be cool (4) I must not appear to be poor, even if I am poor (5) if I achieve points 1-4 I will attract members of the opposite sex."

I will correct you because the reasons you give above only apply to a certain proportion of the population – somewhere between 5% to 40% depending on the socio-economic, cultural and other background factors of the teenagers. Surprisingly, in my experience, country areas run a higher percentage than suburban areas.

"And what is one way in which you can achieve all of the above – by owning a car and driving to school. Then once you have the car you can (a) install a big sound system (b) do burnouts in front of your peers (3) do burnouts with your peers in the car (d) go cruising with 5 – mates, or better still, with 1 – 2 mates and 2 – 3 girls (e) make fun of poor kids that can’t afford a car."

With a learner’s permit, you cannot drive yourself to school. In most states, even if you have your licence, as a student you cannot park on or near school premises because of the perceived danger and legal restraints of the schools. Even if you are able to drive near the school, points (b) and (c) are guaranteed to land you in trouble, as the teachers are able to identify you.
I might add that when one tried this in front of my classroom, he ended up with court cases over unlicensed driving and dangerous driving, as well as not being able to use any family car for a few years (he did the burnouts in his mother’s car, which she told the school was in the garage – and he nearly ended up being charged with theft of the vehicle).

As regards (a), most of the teenagers I have taught have trouble affording the car – the sound system comes a few years after once they have full-time work. For (e), the one who comes to school with “L” plates on a Mercedes generally gets no more attention than the one in an old Holden/Ford. For (d), it’s generally mothers of the girls who control whether that happens.

"If this isn’t enough to convince you the Taskforce report even states that 16-20 year olds make up 6% of road users but are involved in 18% or crashes."

The percentage of teenagers involved in collisions or other traffic incidents is high – and overseas experience has shown that altering driving ages rarely alters the actual percentages, just the ages at which they happen. When driving ages rose from 15 to 17 in some US states, the age of accidents increased by 2 years. When the age in other states dropped from 21 to 18, the ages dropped too. The research shows inexperience and risk-taking are the highest factors. Raising the driving age does not eliminate inexperience, and risk-taking does diminish with age and may be gender-related, though it is becoming less so now. However supervised learners have a lower accident rate than licensed drivers, and even the accidents they have are less serious.

Let’s just consider the current system for licences in most states.

Start with the learners’ permit:
Read the rule book, read through sample tests and then sit for a computerized multiple-choice set of a number of questions where you must get a certain number correct. As the sample banks are so large, nearly all possible questions can be read and the answer learned as the alternative, but not the concept. If you fail, then you can sit it again. As most people know, anyone or anything can be trained if there is sufficient incentive or reward. It is certainly not an intelligence test. So getting a permit under those conditions is not a difficult task. If there is a reaction test, the same idea operates. [As an aside, I tried one computerised driving test. I had to watch a film of driving under different conditions. Highway was okay, and I reacted well to hazards. In suburban streets, when cars were parked on the side, I “slowed down”. I was told I had to drive at the speed limit. My reply was, “Too many hazards, I drive at the speed dictated by the surroundings.” The computer decided I couldn’t get a permit!]

Now let’s go to the licence test:
A short drive with pre-determined skills tested and scored. No thorough testing of knowledge of the theory of driving nor their applications in the operation of a motor vehicle, no testing under different conditions (rain, dark, different road surfaces, different speeds) and certainly no assessment of aptitude or suitability for driving. No medical except a simple eyesight test.

Let’s think about the issuing of licences:
It is assumed that having a licence to drive is a right in Australia, rather than a privilege. This assumption is so ingrained that it is a last resort to take a licence off a driver. Rather, to have a licence should be a privilege, and that privilege should be removed when behaviour proves to be dangerous in any form. A driver should have to show that this behaviour has been modified before being able to drive again.

"A lot of the reasons listed above are reasons why I think co-ed schools should be scrapped. In fact, there is plenty of research out there that proves that students of single sex schools perform better than students of co-ed schools."

Schooling is an extremely complex issue. Socialisation, conformity and acceptance of rules and authority are followed by training and then education.
For some students, they are focused on getting the best results and nothing will distract them. In the Melbourne area, these students are often immigrant children who are trying to get successful lives in a new country and know that education certificates are their key. No matter what type of school, these students will succeed.
Some students are focused on having a good time. Their background does not value education, but rather is socially oriented. No matter what type of school they attend, these will benefit little from the teaching given. Some students are sports-oriented and so concentrate on this rather than any other aspect of their schooling.
Some students perform better when their peers are the same sex – they concentrate on the task given rather than the people around them. Others perform better when they compete against the opposite sex. Consequently there is no one “best practice” model for schools – but there definitely is a best school for individuals. It is parental responsibility to choose the most appropriate type of school for their child. Ideally it would be in co-operation with the child.

"Plenty of kids in history have gotten to school without a car and I think that not having a car between the ages of 16 – 18 will make kids do better at school. They have enough on their plate with hormones, exam pressure, peer pressure, working a part time job, etc without worrying about cars. Here’s an idea. Authorities should paint a picture that by finishing high school your reward is freedom in the form of a licence and a car. 16 and 17 year olds are too immature, let them finish school, get all the crap out of their life, so they can get to uni and relax a bit."

“Relax a bit” is not a current concept at uni for anyone who wants to be successful – at this has been translated into economic terms because of the “HECS” concept. Also, maturity does not come to all people at a standard age or in all aspects at once.

"Which leads me back to education. A lot of people believe kids are as smart today as they have ever been but I strongly disagree. Yes I agree there are some very tech savvy kids out there but if academic performance is the measuring stick then I would have to say that this generation of teens are by far the dumbest in history."

They are not the dumbest in history, but they have been dealt a dud hand by the systems which purport to educate them but in fact fail to do so.

"English, maths and science are not compulsory subjects in the HSC and both universities and employers constantly complain about the lack of education in this country. Kids are leaving school at 18 who cannot read, write, spell or do simple sums in their heads. Universities have to run bridging courses to get some students up to speed."

Irrespective of compulsory subjects at HSC, it is the compulsion to do these subjects successfully at lower levels which is essential. University is one aspect of education – technical, practical and arts are equally valid and important for a balanced society. Basics are the building blocks of anything.

In English, alphabet, spelling, reading and grammar are the skills needed before more advanced aspects can be taught. Otherwise it becomes a house of cards which tumbles when under pressure. Creating fun courses which do not address these leads to students who can understand arguments but cannot explain them to anyone else coherently or communicate them in written form so they can be understood.

In Mathematics, counting and arithmetic are skills needed to understand and progress. Calculators and computers are only useful once the actual operations are understood (not just able to be done). Mental arithmetic allows quick everyday mathematics to be done and the estimation of processes computed in other ways.

Students leave primary schools without many of these basic skills, but secondary schools teachers are trained to build on the skills, not teach them. There is a problem when this occurs, and it remains with students who miss out forever, even if they master the skills later.

"So, should we should let these dimwits behind the wheel of a car at 16? I don’t think so."

Driving a car is a complex physical and mental task. It involves training and education, but often training is the only aspect covered. As learners are supervised by parents, if they have only been trained and not educated, they cannot impart the educational aspect. Many drivers have 20, 30, 40 years of experience – many drivers have hade one year of experience 20, 30, 40 times and have become no better. Successful training and education means that students are capable of learning and willing to learn. Capability to learn increases with age, while often willingness to learn decreases with age. The difficulty is finding the optimum age, and for the reasons I gave in my other comments, I believe younger, within reason, is better. However, too young can be bad, and so children who drive early can often exhibit the same fatal flaws in their early years of licenced driving as those who had no previous experience before learning on the road.

"And why has this come about? Kids are taught to read by word recognition instead of the way we learnt, where we learnt the alphabet, then two letter words, three, etc, and we learnt to sound words out. Heck, even words we weren’t taught we could figure out."

Using phonetics to comprehend and pronounce words is a successful basic skill when learned. It allows simple words and sounds to be compounded into complex words. I agree with you 100%. With word recognition, for a vocabulary of 100 000 words, you have to learn 100 000 words. With the use of syllables and phonetics, for a vocabulary of 100 000 words, you may have to learn as few as 10 000 words. One method is efficient – one is so hard that children who should be reading have had that skill denied to them.

"On top of this they receive no corporal punishment. If they really muck up they might be “unlucky” enough to be sent home for a week. That’s no punishment, that’s a freaking holiday! If they had this in my day I would have skipped years 8 & 9 and lobbed up for year 10. Teachers cannot manhandle students for fear of being charged with assault or sexual harassment. And the bit I really love, the grading system, or should I say the no-grading system. These days kids can go right through high school not knowing how dumb they are or not knowing they have the reading ability of a 5 year old because we cannot hurt their self esteem. The parents are also at a loss to know whether they should be saving their pennies to put the kid through uni, saving to put them in drug & alcohol rehab or just using the cash to go to Tahiti."

Students know what they can do – they will assess themselves harder and more realistically than a lot of their teachers. It does no-one, students more than others, any good to unrealistically assess their skills or knowledge. A good report will say what students should be able to do, then list their achievements in every aspect. Whether the assessment is letters or numbers is irrelevant, but is must be correct (honest may be a better term). If they don’t have the skills to go on, then they shouldn’t until they get them. No essential knowledge should be omitted. They should be mastered. The report should explain how to gain these skills – and WORK is a four-letter word which should be used more often. Also, education is a co-operative experience between teachers, students and parents – if any participants can’t work co-operatively, then it won’t be successful.

"Well, thank you do-gooders. They cannot have harsh words said about them, they do not get A’s, B’s, etc, they are not ranked using percentile bands, and they are not ranked within their form or even against others in their class. Do you still think that 16 and 17 year olds should be let loose on the roads? But because some are a bit savvy people think they are smart. These days they memorise all their work, without understanding it, and think they are smart. One day one of these “geniuses” may be standing over you with a scalpel trying to recall by photographic memory how to do a quadruple bypass. These kids are not capable of independent thought. They have spellcheck, calculators, the internet to do all their research (can you imagine if they had to do research in a library – they wouldn’t know where to start) and God knows what else, but take it all away and you’re left with nothing." I’ll add more here later, but again there is a system which has failed many students even though individual teachers have worked well with many students to create real learners.
 5/15/2007 11:30:58 PM
Doug
18 posts


Re: CLP getting cold feet?
Apologies - I've triple-posted. If possible, remove the two which have no spacing. Sorry.
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